Reef Central removes years of Seachem customer support following pulled sponsorship
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We here at Reef Builders like to maintain a positive tone in all of our writing but occasionally we have to bring light to very selfish and myopic actions which are deleterious to our hobby. Case in point: Reef Central removed a very valuable block of information from the bulletin board once the money stopped coming in. After years and tens of thousands of dollars in sponsorship, Seachem decided that sponsoring with Reef Central was no longer a part of their marketing strategy and that they preferred to do customer support through other avenues. Seachem had this to say about the move:
Dear Reef Central Members:
We would like to take the opportunity to inform you that Seachem Laboratories will no longer be an active sponsor of ReefCentral.com. We have made this decision in an attempt to consolidate and streamline our avenues of product support to our customers and appreciate your understanding of this. We are grateful to all who have supported us in this community over the years and hope you will continue to do so in the future. Any and all product support-related questions can be addressed via our website, www.seachem.com.
Sincerely,
Seachem Product Support
Although Reef Central members could have benefited from a half decade of posts in the Seachem sponsor forum, since Seachem was no longer paying the site Reef Central very selfishly removed that subforum altogether, along with thousands of posts relating to using Seachem products which are very popular with a big swath of the reefing community, ourselves included. It’s a pity that Reef Central’s operators couldn’t see the value in leaving the thousands of answers which had been posted in the Seachem forum over all those years but we guess it will reinforce the growing trend for manufacturers, businesses and reef clubs to create their own forums where they will be shown a tad more respect.
Feer Central.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
After being an RC premium member for 5yrs, I posted 5 pumps for sale on their forum and on Ebay at the same time. I had bought the pumps for a tank I never set up, and decided to sell them on RC.
The next day I find my RC account closed, due to conducting commercial sales???????
After pleading with one of the moderators for a couple day I finally received a simple e-mail reading “RC is not the community for you”
After 5yrs of paying them to be a “premium member” which truly has no benefit over being a non paying member.
So all I can is I AM NOT SURPRISED!!!!! The only thing I regret is all of the good people in reefing I lost contact with.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
reef central sucks it.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Very unfortunate… props to SeaChem for going another route, props to Reef Builders for condemning the RC act, and once again something to flame the hate of reef central for hobbyists everywhere. Very sad indeed.
Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Reef Central had done some agitating things lately. They ran member “Mojo” off who had been doing great unbiased skimmer reviews. They have also run off some great DIY and informational types for various reasons. I suppose this has trickle uphill to vendors. I beginning to call into question some of the moderating decisions that have been made there in the last 6 months and have since joined another community too see if it was forums in general or just RC and it is just RC. Too Bad that knowledge was lost. Maybe it will appear in the archives one day.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
I think this action shows that Reef Central is moving away from being a pure information source. If they just wanted to be an information source, then they would have left the forum up so that the information in there could have been maintained for others to draw upon.
But from a business standpoint, this move makes sense – if your sponsor stops paying, you stop providing them value – in this case their own forum. So if Reef Central is trying to become a business, then of course they’d drop the forum.
The problem is everyone thinks of Reef Central as only an information source, NOT a business. Information sources are maintained usually at high costs with little chance for real revenue. Take for example libraries. They are usually run by the local government b/c they cannot make money on their own. Great sources of information, poor sources of revenue. But for the public good, the government foots the bill. Since everyone sees Reef Central as an information source, people get upset when information is pulled, irregardless of the fact that Reef Central needs money (sponsorships) to operate.
If Reef Central wants to be a business, then they should say that and start acting as one. If they just want to be an information source, then the SeaChem forum should go back up.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
well said Mark C
November 18th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
@ Mark C, Reef Central is an educational supply manufacturer, and they print 1000’s of presidential flashcards every day.
Go look at the banner page, those sponsors pay quadruple digits every month for their banners and support forums. That’s not even taking into account the hundreds of members they sign up every day, or the 10, 20, 30, 40….membership renewals that come in every single day!
They are a business…hands down, but trust me, its a business on cruise control, and losing seachem doesn’t hurt them in the slightest. It just a shame that all that info was deleted.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
BTW, Kudos Jake for posting
November 18th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Seachem is not the only one pulling out of Reef Central. A few months ago they raised their (minimum) banner ad rates from $500/mo to $700/mo to cover falling revenues.
The only thing they have going for them is years of accumulated info in posts. But as you know, this hobby changes rapidly and the info will go stale after a while.
Other smaller but significant forums like Reef Builders, Reef Sanctuary, Reef Frontiers, etc., are more friendly with a lot less trolls and the self-appointed know-it-all’s.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Wow. thats really just a shame and real selfish of RC to do that. That’s why i enjoy reading my local reef forum and also Nano-Reef.
November 18th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
All i know is that Seachem left RC brcause of financial reasons on their end, not some political reason with Rc. When a sponser pulls out, the forum that they are given is pulled as well. It was a perk that they were not willing to pay for so they lost it. How can RC leave it there for them and not others? I still love Rc and have been a member since 2002. I am willing to put up with the heavy moderation is exchange for useful mature information, not nonsense. They are still the best reefing message board around. it’s just not up to everybody’s likeing. Thats the problem with something that is so big.
I really love Reefbuilders also for the slick equipment reviews but after the bullcrap information that they promoted during the RC outage/upgrade a few months ago, i am beginging to wonder if Reefbuilders is simply jealous of ReefCentral.
November 18th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
agreed to Ed, +1 to Jake for posting this.
people need to realise how many useful resources were pull out by RC during the last few years.. oh well…
November 18th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
DFS/Liveaquaria is still up though weird…
November 18th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
So, let me get this straight: Seachem isn’t willing to pay RC to have their product support hosted there anymore. Since server space and bandwidth cost money, and since RC isn’t in the business of providing free customer support hosting, they pull down the forum. Makes sense to me… it’d be hard for RC to sell sponsorship benefits to their other sponsors if they give away one of the big benefits for free.
I’ve been paying Comcast $50 a month for my internet service for years, but once I stop paying them I’d expect them to turn it off.
It makes more sense to be ticked off at Seachem for ditching such a worthwhile forum.
November 18th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
So… if Cherry Corals or Aquatic Auction pulled their sponsorship from RB, you’d let them keep their forum here?
November 18th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Cmon dont knock Rc that hard if it was not for them all those self appointed know it alls would be crawling all over the other forums, least they have a home
But I do agree, if a sponsor pulls the plug then the posts get washed down the drain with the forum and banner, we live in a commercial world (sadly.
I think it would have been wiser for Seachem to copy all their important posts before pulling the plug and transferring them to their own database. But hindsight (check spelling) is a wonderful thing!
November 18th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
RC could have moved the Seachem forum posts to some archives. Info still there, sponsor specialness gone. They don’t removed posts from member that leave or that have moved on.
November 18th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
I see nothing wrong with this. Why should RC pony the bill for RC’s sub-forum if they pulled out? Plenty of other sponsors have pulled out, had their sub-forums pulled as per the contract and RB didn’t say squat!
November 18th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
rc mods are nazi’s and those who stick up for their bs are too. and since i am blessed with anonymity here, im not afraid to say it here. they could have moved seachem posts to the archives.
November 18th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Thanks for having the ballz to post this. You will most likely be banned from RC
I agree with Biff
“RC could have moved the Seachem forum posts to some archives. Info still there, sponsor specialness gone. They don’t removed posts from member that leave or that have moved on.”
There are plenty of other forums out there *cough* Reef2Reef *cough*
November 18th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Damn I’ve been outed
I’m really a Nazi
What makes Seachem any different then all the other RC sponsorsthat have come and gone?
November 18th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
BTW – it seems to be able to buy/sell on RC you now need to be a member for 90 days AND have 50 meaningful post. I get the 90 days, fine, sure, but the 50 posts is crazy. People who bother to read and not ask the same questions over and over again, too bad for you!
November 18th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
I understand not wanting people to sign up on a website just to sell stuff, but newbies able to buy stuff seems like nothing but a good idea for so many reasons. Why not just limit the selling…there must be some bb tweak that allows such a thing.
November 18th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
confused your a rc agent. i have been a rc member for 8 years i know their steeze. i contribute for my fellow reefers, not for rc money making plans.
November 18th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
reef central is a money hungry web site, how silly to remove all the old posts.
Pretty much a rip off to be a sponsor.
November 19th, 2009 at 1:17 am
What a pointless article with a bunch of useless banter written by none other than the biggest self appointed know it all in the industry! What a lame attempt to bring attention to reef builders
November 19th, 2009 at 1:36 am
What a classic bunch of posts! Some of you guys take this fish tank hobby too seriously…
November 19th, 2009 at 2:15 am
I stopped visiting RC due to their sleazy tactics and gestapo-like moderation in 2004, and they’ve only gotten worse. Little do their visitors know that the site rakes in over $10,000 per MONTH, and they still want you to “support” them and make excuses for their horrible bandwith and outdated forum software (not to mention their constant warnings, bannings, useless search function, and tons of mis-information). My opinion of reef central has been the same for five+ years: they’re crap.
November 19th, 2009 at 7:05 am
Wait wait wait- some questions have STILL not been answered. What about all the OTHERS sponsors that stopped doing so, and had their forums deleted? Why is THAT not an issue? And Re: moderation- I dont understand why people have such a hang up following the rules they agreed to. There is 40 dillion (yes thats right, dillion) people on RC and a relative handful of moderators. They are given the “power” to enforce rules as they see fit. If you dont like it, go elsewhere! But to just gripe about them doing EXACTLY what they said they were gonna do is absurd. I have had posts HERE on RB moderated. I made a playful comment to a FRIEND of mine, and it was altered. Do I feel it was necessary? Not at all. Do I understand why it was done? YES!!! Is it a sore point? NOT AT ALL! Heres the question- if it is so aweful, why go there? And if you dont go there, what are you complaining about?
November 19th, 2009 at 9:11 am
I really stopped viewing RC as a leading source of information about 2 years ago. I am not concerned about their cash flow issues, but quality of information available and accessiblity of information.
I admit I was booted too once years ago for challenging experts on zeovit forum to how mechanism works. It was too moderated to question a vendor. I was polite about it. Zeovit was moved along or moved along as well.
November 19th, 2009 at 9:24 am
I hate RC mods. when your a sponsor you can do anything!!! such as bad mouth other companies/products, but when your just a lonely member you can’t say anything or you get banned. Jeremy from PA does so many fair trade practices for proline on RC that he gets all the first shipments from them while others companies have to wait.
November 19th, 2009 at 9:34 am
@ Unknown – I will 100% disagree with you here, I run TWO sponsored forums on RC and am so heavily moderated I can barely step outside our forum without being pulled into rank. Do I disagree with this, in principle no, however it has recently stopped my tank build thread being put in the open arena, but I took the step of asking first instead of posting and waiting to be hit. Is this right that as a sponsor I should be so limited as a hobbyist also? Well I can see their point, my build will focus on ProfiLux and Fauna marin so would easily be deemed commercial. So I take the hit and understand where they are coming from.
RC are huge, and any big company will always be seen as the enemy no matter what good they do, yes the site attracts self righteous idiots, but as I said above, least it keeps them all in one cage!
Lets not forget one simple thing – RC is a commercial venture company, whether you like it or not, it is there in principle to make some guys a bit more than just beer money. So why on earth should they continue to support a company that no longer supports them.
Seachem did not think this through, if they had that many important posts they should of copied them across before removing sponsorship, least they then would of had a huge resource tool for their new venture.
I think the biggest issue here is we all forget the foundation of RC – Commerical entity just like this forum, if it was not then i would not be having to spend out $$$$ next month on sponsorship and if we ever stopped sponsoring I would fully expect Ryan to remove everything ever published, why – Thats business folks!
Do I support RC? As a commercial venture ourselves, hell yes, it has more traffic than Mcdonalds next to the biggest loser camp! Do I support it as a hobbyist? Hmm tough one, I do find it quite hostile, but this is why it is HEAVILY moderated.
November 19th, 2009 at 9:51 am
@ Jeremy Maneyapanda. This is just the one example that was brought to light. I have a problem with the other instances also. Also I have a hang up following rules that the mods themselves don’t follow. They “sell for friends” but a member of the forum will punished for doing so. The other thing is people complain because they can and most likely when they did at RC were silenced. So when these avenues come up people take every opportunity they can to voice their opinion.
November 19th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Paul@PSU,
I appreciate that, but the fact remains, if it sucks so bad, leave! I still dont understand what the hangup is. The rules say that *you* cannot do things. Why such a concern what others are doing? If a mod is a hypocrit, or breaks the rules, or whatever, how does that effect you in the slightest? In this case, the business, in Seachem, has decided to not pursue sponsorship anymore. So beit, that is their choice (which I happen to agree with). But, in what world, is ReefCentral obliged to do ANYTHING for them, after Seachem has severed their business relationship? DFSLA was brought up- they are still sponsors, and still pay the $$$. They have just closed their forums (also, very rightfully so, IMO).
But getting back to moderation, or overmoderation, as the accusation lays- every knows this is what happens, they say theyre going to do it- why doesnt anyone expect different? And why does anyone have a problem with it? If this “overmoderation” is so stifling, and restricts some self appointed rights (which posting on RC is NOT, its a priveledge), why do Forty twelve dillion people go there to post? And look for information? And why do sponsors flock there to spend so much money? And why are people so upset, that they will come to another forum to complain about that forum, many of which these people have claimed they no longer visit? I just dont get it. If RC is evil incarnate, avoid it. Its not that hard.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Wow…just wow! I am curious as to how you all think RC or any other forum is run and funded? Did people think that it was truely free? So when you pay for your cell phone for 3 years and all of a sudden decide that you would rather use a land line, you would expect AT&T to continue to let you use the rolled over minutes that you had accumulated????
RC or RB or any other forum is funded by the sponsors and people understand that.
@Michael…you are 100% correct and it should show these people that have commented negatively what the real world is like…
November 19th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
“Why such a concern what others are doing?” I think you should ask yourself this. Why are you so concerned about others voicing their opinion. If you don’t agree with or like it then don’t look at this post or better yet LEAVE!
I don’t feel they should have just left the forum open but like some people have suggested they could have put it in the archives for the community to reference. JMO that would not have been a huge strain on bandwidth.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Paul@PSU- HA! That is funny. I am not commenting on any negative aspect of ReefBuilders- I like this site. I am commenting on the absurd issues of fellow users, thats all. If I *DID* have an issue with ReefBuilders, I wouldnt frequent it. Especially if it was a pointless argument about how they are doing exactly what they told me they would do.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Some here are making comments on things that this move by Seachem most likely has little to do with (like their own feelings about RC). In the current economic climate (or any, for that matter), the personal choice of Seachem to drop Reef Central sponsorship is likely 100% due to $$$. If Seachem sees the revenue that RC generates through exposure and ease of interaction as a sponsor as worth the fee they pay, they will keep it. If Seachem feels that the money spent isnt resulting in additional sales, they will drop it… simple as that. This could be due to a number of indirect reasons reasons, but no concern of Seachem’s. The indirect reasons are more RC’s concern. If more members are leaving due to frustration and the perception of information control, RC’s product has less value… still, if it results in more sales for the sponsors… why leave? Even if RC didnt have those issues, if the sponsorship service they offer isnt worth the expense, its not going to last. RC’s concern would be that since making their business interests more of an influence on their actions, they have lost their more informed members, and those that stay dont post much of value on there for fear of what the sponsors reactions might be (and what that would make RC mods do in response). This has resulted in a sort of ‘exodus’… first it was the ‘expert forums’ many years ago, and without those guys to act as a ‘intelligence sheild’ of what is propaganda and what is science, the posts of the individuals who have taken their place are scrutinized. This is RC’s problem though, not Seachem’s (barring any ethical concerns that Seachem might see with RC’s tactics and not want to be associated with that element). I know of a number of sponsors on RC that are leaving (either have already, or are going to pull the plug at the end of the year). Most might be annoyed with RC’s tactics, but for the most part as long as its ethical (and since RC is a business, they can control the information they put out), it is purely a money/expense concern.
Since RC is a business (for profit), that does raise the legal/ethical concern that IF they are acting in the interests of their sponsors, and allowing those sponsors to post information on their site, part of the responsibility of the imformation contained in those sponsor’s posts is the the liability of RC. So if a sponsor posts things that are incorrect, false, or illegal, RC could be viewed as an accomplice/accessory. For instance, if a certain sponsor posts that they have a new pump product to offer, and they claim that they make that product 100% in their own country of origin, but in fact it turns out to be made in a seperate country all together (country of origin fraud)… should U.S. customs get involved and view that information, RC could be held liable as an advertising agent for that sponsor (User Agreement would go out of the window so fast in court). They should be removing the information from that sponsor then to prevent any further liability. And, lets say you buy something from a sponsor on RC, and then that sponsor ‘goes under’… does that mean you can return your defective product to RC for a RMA? I wonder if RC is listed as an LLC or what? Anyone know?
November 19th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Well, all this post did was to start a war between RC and RB.
I do agree though that the seachem forum should have been archived, or if it needed to be deleted for space and bandwidth sake, give a copy of the archive to seachem, since they are co-owners of the the discussion threads. I don’t think it’s too late since I’m sure RC has daily, weekly and monthly backups.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
The minimum sponsorship is 500. If you Count the sponsors you see its alot of money. They should of locked posts and moved them to a general forum
November 19th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
mojo was a good source of skimmer info. I kinda see their point, he got some skimmers for free. but he always gave a good fair review. if he didn’t like the skimmer he said so. case in point, the RE Alpha skimmers.
November 19th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Business is business and we all understand that. Seachem was not just another sponsor though; they were likely one of the first crop of sponsors that RC ever had. For all of the support and money that Seachem has given RC over the years, particularly during it’s early days, RC should have granted the leading manufacturer just a tad more respect. Seachem is a HUGE sponsor of marine aquarium forums and events all over the country. Companies like Seachem, Reef Nutrition, Marineland and Ecotech Marine shell out so much money each year just to so we can put on our puny little frag swaps; they should be granted a little more reciprocation. That’s what this post is about.
I think it would have been very reasonable to archive the forum, and maybe some of the forums of sponsors that have been with RC for a year or more. I highly doubt that RC deleted the subforum, likely just making it invisible. There’s nothing to stop them from still archiving the forum, making it read-only yet still accessible.
November 19th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Excellent article Jake. I had a running with RC earlier this year and have not returned. It is nice to see someone is willing to publically call them out for their dirty tactics. They claim to be a site for the free exchange of experience and information but when you say anything that casts a negative light on a product produced by one of their major sponsors, THWACK, you get the ax.
Now I can’t blame RC entirely. I should have know that any forum that has a 20+ page user agreement is not just about sharing information. For the record, I did not have to sign an agreement to post here.
Kudoos Jake.
November 19th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Why would it start a war between RC and RB (users)? RC and RB might differ in format, but the underlying purpose is the same. RB is more ‘up front’ about it by putting the ‘information/advertising’ blog as the front page… so people cant really complain. RC’s model at one time was more ‘hobbyist’ oriented (or, at least that is the perception), and therefore hobbyist controlled. When they started raking in the sponsorship money though, this is where their priorities changed (or became more obvious). Most ‘new’ hobbyists would go to RC w/o knowing what the external interests really were… one day, sooner or later, they find out (maybe when someone tells them how much RC makes on sponsors, or they cross some line and get banned or a warning from a mod). Over time though, these ‘banned’ individuals build up and the resulting ‘why I hate RC’ results on Google build up and become word-of-mouth so even the newbie-reefers know RC’s interests up front. Then they put 2&2 together and realize that RC is NOT ‘their’ site.
All forums with funding coming from the business sponsors have this potential downfall. Just by being ‘for profit’ the forums need to have their content restricted for liability concerns on the sponsor end of things, as RC must still act as an agent of the sponsors too. The only partial internal system of checks & balances is if sponsors are allowed to compete (possibly even argue with each other), as the private hobbyist/customer has no clout to back their own arguments up if they have a dispute with a sponsor. The external system though is much greater… if RC fails to meet the hobbyist’s needs, they will go elsewhere, and then the sponsors will leave as well. Given the current business models for this type (reef) of sponsored forum businesses, I would say that they are all bound to fail after some time. Once public perception catches up or clashes with the reality that these sites are backed with company money, the incentive to participate is lost. Your average forum post becomes no more than a combination of customer support and a ‘what some of our customers have done with our products’ type of link. Unbiased product reviews? Phooey! The vendor feedback forums start to get questionable as well… so why even bother? The good intentions of the operators and admins to stay balanced will eventually give way to economic priorities. These forums could easily be replaced with forums run on each sponsor’s own site (like marine depot forums) with little change in content.
A forum sponsor model could adopt a ‘constitution’ like many local clubs have. This would detail the balance between the hobbyists and sponsors. The problem with this is that most clubs are ‘non profit’ and dont provide personal incomes while most sites like RC/RB are not, and so personal income interests play a role. If the constitution doesnt detail the response to every possible circumstance (and how could it?) the open areas will be skewed by personal incentives to make money… so the constitution could be undermined in the open areas, or even changed over time as needed. Because of these reasons though, the local club/hobbyist based run forums are THE BEST resource out there for unbiased, unrestricted, and critical information. The sponsors aren’t going to ‘overturn’ the local club’s interests and the interests of club members. If the sponsors dont like something that the club’s forums contain, its not as if the members cant tell each other in person anyways, so censorship is pointless.
For a sponsored forum/business to operate more fairly with internal mechanisms to prevent sponsor domination, a ‘consumer/hobbyist advocate’ position might be added. This person would argue for the hobbyist when conflicts arise. The only problem is that unless this person is paid from an outside source, their ultimate incentive lies with the best interests of the businesses.
I would propose a ‘pay to play’ based reef forum. All financing for the site would come from the hobbyists and anonymous donations. In other fields, like say internet gaming clans… the monthly server and site upkeep is often paid from just donations. I was shocked to find out how much some of these sites make just on donations. And while you might argue that “of course they make more $$$ because internet gaming is so much more popular”, you must consider that each server or club site is a much smaller slice of the overall pie. Most gaming servers are regional in their base due to network lag/interface restrictions, and on top of that, there are thousands of clubs competing. Still, one clan I used to help run server-side made their monthly server dues for 6 servers (each costing about $25-36 a month) in the first few days of each month from paypal donations. This is one model, and as long as income > cost, its worth considering. This model would mean little to no conflict of interests. All donations would be anonymous, so a business OR hobbyists could contribute.
The OTHER model is a ‘pay to play’… the online forum is operated like a local club’s forums. You can join a heavily restricted version of the forum/club for free, but to gain access to all of the forums, or to be able to post, see special deals, etc… you must pay a monthly/yearly fee and join the club. Doing this puts the companies at the mercy of the hobbyists. Many might argue against this for a variety of obvious reasons, as the ultimate ones who benefit from these sites are the company sponsors, and they are the one’s making the money to be spent on making more money… but the ultimate truth behind the company sponsored forums is that they really are at the mercy of the hobbyists more than the companies. By adopting company interests over hobbyists, they undermine the perception of ‘the customer is always right’, and really end up shooting themselves in the foot long-term. If the membership drops, then the sponsors leave as well… you know? So wouldnt a forum that is owned and operated by a national club (with dues) make the most sense? MASNA is by definition the closest thing to this, but they do have business sponsors as well, so its a little conflicted still. Still… a sponsor cant censor a club since those members can just call each other up on the phone anyways.
There is also the ‘public funded’ or ‘anonymous foundation’ sponsorship. When Bill Gates (or other omnipotent being) takes an interest in the reef hobby, he might donate $100,000 a year to someone to run a forum for hobbyists w/o any other outside for sponsorship. So if anyone here knows someone worth a few billion and you HAVENT introduced your hobby to them as a potential passtime… what are you waiting for!?!?!
Or, rather than using an ‘alias’ online, you could just have your personal contact info in enough places that anyone who wants to know what you said in that ‘censored’ post can just call you up. Having your own website is another way around this. I have found this method to be most important when dealing with the likes of RC. If RC doesnt like your post, you can just post the unedited version on your own site, or on your local club’s site… they cant stop you from doing that. People who wanted to know more about the Red Dragon 2 motors for instance, just contacted me through my own club’s site once RC banned me for it. Hobbyists from around the world simply looked me up through my local club and emailed me for my information about who really makes the motors, who designed them, what the problems really are, etc… Singapore through the EU. What, is Klaus going to have Yahoo censor my emails? He might get big and red when upset, but he’s not China (where those pumps are made BTW).
November 19th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
“mojo was a good source of skimmer info. I kinda see their point, he got some skimmers for free. but he always gave a good fair review. if he didn’t like the skimmer he said so. case in point, the RE Alpha skimmers”
Mojo is just one of many that came before, myself included. Not to take away from Mojo’s work, but dont you think there were some other outside influences on his final opinion that weren’t 100% fact based? When the Alpha’s first came out, I posted that based on the specs, the skimmers wouldn’t perform as well as expected… purely from my own research and math. Sure, I didnt OWN one, but after you work with enough, you dont really need to. In the early days of when ATB was trying to put the Laguna 1500 on the Medium Cone skimmer, similar designs were tested and never sold (as in, exact same specs, just a different maker), as the problems were obvious. But I suppose since I dont own a Vertex, I cant comment…lol. And since I liked helping out ATB when they needed it, and they got me back for my time, I get seen as biased.
What I am getting at is that Skimmers are a great example of a highly opinionated area. All one can do is present very circumstantial personal results… the rest, unless you come up with some science (good luck) or reasoning (most common but also the most suspect), is just opinion. Its about as fact-based as the girl at whole-foods telling you that vitamin’s made in Guam will help you fart less. And this is what makes ‘moderating’ forums such a difficult task. If I want to claim that dumping my new-fangled product in your tank will make your corals grow like weeds, who can prove me wrong? If I want to claim that using a bubble plate with smaller holes will improve your skimming, how will you know? It comes down to a war of money for the most part. Those who pay to post it, do.
November 19th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
good point made.
November 19th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
“Why would it start a war between RC and RB (users)?”
Not users but between the two companies — bad blood between owners and maybe moderators of both sites just like Engadget vs Gizmodo if you are familiar with their qualms. Users, members, guests wouldn’t care and some might even find the qualms between the two sites entertaining.
Now what I don’t understand is the ‘I support’ fee that both sites have. If you look at it, paying the fee gives you some perks at the forums. To me, it sounds more like ‘membership’ without black and white rules. It becomes a bit more dangerous for both sites as they sort of sell services and members have the right to be well treated. Members who have paid the fees can actually complain if they really want to.
I suggest to take out those ‘I support’ fees since the model of both sites are based on ads anyway. It’ll be ’safer’ for both sites and it members will like it more.
BTW, RC used to sell membership in exchange for searching priority. Their recent upgrade to the latest forum software has removed the searching cap. So what’s the advantage of paying membership now? You get a free blog. lol
November 19th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
I guess after reading this thread I just don’t understand the original post by RB. First, why would Reef Central continue to allow advertisements from a company that no longer wants to advertise with them? I mean it’s just silly to think they would. Would Reef Builders continue to show a banner ad after they stopped receiving money from them? Of course not. This site, like 99% of the other reef forums, is strictly “for profit” and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think this is just another case of “forum envy” here at reef Builders.
JR
November 19th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Well, RB posting ‘Customer Service FAIL!’ would be something more aimed at Seachem, and actually look like an endorsement for being a RC sponsor.
I agree about RC’s premium member fees. Its just another method to make money, but is meaningless in the end… when push comes to shove, your money doesnt buy you jack compared to the sponsor’s contributions… which is why I never bothered.
Im quite happy w/o RC though. I havent bothered trying to make a secret profile or anything. I asked to rejoin 8 months after a supposed 6-month ban. I waited it out, didnt argue or make a secret profile, and when I tried to rejoin I got this response:
“I’ve circulated your message among the rest of the staff and there’s a pretty strong consensus that welcoming you back isn’t in Reef Central’s best interest.”
I asked for more info, but no response. It seems they cant even keep their own word, let alone follow the original restrictions they put on me to the letter (I was banned for making posts on skimmer design (no specific makes) and RD pumps (not a competitor of ATB’s skimmers), but my restrictions were listed as to ‘not make posts regarding ATB or ATB skimmer competitors’… which in itself doesnt make sense when you think about it, yet when I asked why I couldnt make comments about ATB skimmers even, I got no response).
Reef Central likes to play the omnipotent role with people, which will be their downfall in the end. All those individuals they have dismissed over the years so easily start to add up.
When ATB first came to the US, and I was making posts about ATB on RC, they contacted me about getting clarification on what they saw as a very ‘grey area’ since my posts were pretty much the only source of info on ATB at the time, and therfore seen as a form of ‘advertising for a non-sponsor’ by some (like any post isnt advertising SOMETHING, you know?). At the time, ATB had already applied to be a sponsor of RC, yet not heard back. In a gesture intended to connect, an RC staffer asked me ‘what would you think if you were in our position?’ (as if my posts were a violation of some sort)… Rather than agree like they expected, I shot back “I would think we are really dropping the ball by not making ATB a sponsor already.”
Not the best business sense. Than again, some of the business owners that like to push their agendas in this small market have VERY questionable ethics.
November 19th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Justreefing, no one said they should let Seachem advertise on RC. I think you need to read the original post again.
November 19th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
since we are all here, i just want to say deger8 and beer guy both are a bucket of skimmate.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:08 am
Thanks for a great read, Jake.
Honestly… I can understand both sides of the argument. Was Seachem a BIG supporter of ReefCentral? Yes. Does RC need money to survive, and continue to provide such a great forum? Yes. BUT it’s the bullcrap I’m hearing from the mods on this link (you know who you are) that makes me want to cancel my membership and move over to Nano-Reef or Reef2Reef.
Who do you guys think you are? I’ve been a member since 2000 and I’ve witnessed you guys pulling the plug on NUMEROUS members because you wanted to make an example. Guess what? Nobody cares; it’s the INTERNET! Sure, sometimes people get out of control and need to be removed. But cm’on… not ONCE have I watched you guys admit to your own wrong doing; Ching Chang’s build thread is a perfect example of your “troll” like ways.
So mods… do yourself a favor and salvage a good thing while you can. Sooner or later those attitudes are going to ruin your site and force another to take the spotlight on reefing. WE, the reefers are why the sponsorship dues keep rolling in every month, let’s not forget that.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:49 am
Great job guys keep going
November 20th, 2009 at 8:42 am
It’s business guys. Get a life.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
All other things aside, I can see R2R taking the torch from Reef Central, cant you guys?
November 21st, 2009 at 1:24 am
It’s a business? Haven’t they been claiming that they don’t make any money and they all work for free?
And the business model is…members post content for free and RC makes money? It all seems a little weird.
I have no problem with them making the changes and runing their site any way the want, but I tink the way they did it, with no announcement and leaving people hanging, was unnecessary. I also think that making fun of people that don’t understand what happened is unnecessary. Just post a standard response that explains what happened instead of making people feel stupid for asking questions. Its like hazing…next you’ll have to steal another sites mascot if you want to be able to post.
It feels like a problem of a large membership to me, like they don’t care if a few people are having problems because who cares, there are a lot more people. Seems like an odd way to develop community.
November 21st, 2009 at 11:47 am
The only thing I miss about RC anymore is being able to clear out my extra equipment on the classifieds.
That site has gotten to the point where a few people dominate every thread, and the few people who dare challenge them or highlight alternatives(i.e. CHEAPER NON SPONSORED Ways) typically get booted off for some reason.
November 21st, 2009 at 4:34 pm
This is the reason I support http://www.worldwidereefers.com
November 21st, 2009 at 11:28 pm
One of the biggest problem with RC s their trolling other site to see what members say about them and turn around and use it against them on RC. Happened to me and quite a few others that had issues with RC. We talked about it on other forums and some started to bash them. Guess what happened? I go back to RC and I can’t get PMs, can’t sell or trade. Now I can’t even see the trading/selling forums along with vendor feedback forums….Not only did I not get a message of why I got no response in the feedback forum….If that’s not heavy handed with Mods that have a GOD complex then what is it?
November 30th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
I guess I don’t fit in here since I have not gotten kicked out of reefcentral yet.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
I agree with, Jeff, i tried to post some corals for sale and got banned on my first sale post. RC is extremely shady. I wouldn’t make any build threads or research threads there. You never know when they’ll decide to delete you and you lose all your info. I think they will slowly die down as reefers venture elsewhere. I have only been using reef forums for a year so i didn’t know better.
December 25th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
I honestly don’t see anything wrong with this? You pay for sponsership and one of the benefits is sponsor recieves a subforum, which provides unprecedented “free” support from existing customers.
So Seachem decided not to be a sponsor, so they lose their forum. Was RC supposed to host a forum for them for free? Not sure of any business that have their customer support forums hosted free somewhere. Most companies have to farm it out, or hire developers and create/maintain in-house.
I would think RC should provide Seachem with an archive of all the posts. Seachem essentially paid for the forum (and subsequently the data), so they should own and be entitled to the data to do with as they please (create an FAQ, create a searchable DB of the posts for a knowledge base, etc.)
Bans for selling items, read the terms of use. If you violate you get banned. Commerical sales were getting out of hand (year or so ago, last I was on RC), so I know they were beginning to “enforce” their existing Terms of Use.
December 28th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
I do not use RC, nor will I support them in any way
(Including buying from many of their vendors)
February 4th, 2010 at 3:21 pm