@Matt- when and where was this orchid seizure? I am VERY interested to look into it. I was told by our USFWS in Atlanta that such things NEVER occur, where seized illegal shipments (even if the species itself isnt regulated, but the import was illegal) went to a commercial source. In particular ofr a CITES appendix I species?! It is nearly impossible even for legitimate organization to import CITES I animals, no less having them donated for resale. That is quite unheard of, from what I understand. Maybe plants are different. Anyway, let me know what, when, and where, Im curious now. You can message me on FB, if you dont wnat to post it publicly.

@Andy- Im not sure what you mean by “controlled locally”. can you explain please?

I am not suggesting that it is possible or expected to eliminate every last one. I am merely stating that offering an unregulated and uncontrolled “free for all” in a capitalism based realm is going to cause some issues in and of itself.

This species may be ideal for the fisheries industry. But leaving it an open field is going to open a can of worms. As in Craig and Vincent’s example, a REGULATED target on them is a better way to go.

With so many people looking for work, what’s wrong with a bounty? Here we are looking for a use for the fish be it MOs or food, how about rewarding people that just go out and kill them? At the least it sets a precedent that they are not tolerated and are not part of the local ecology…

Lionfish need to be caught by hand. Fishing for them with bait would yield roughly 1 Lionfish per 1,000 Yellowtail Snapper. I can’t imagine a scenario where Lionfish in the Atlantic are ever “over-fished”.

@Jeremy – the Laboratory in question was Antec Laboratories based in New York State. My memory was slightly out of whack on it…seems the plants did not go “directly” into a commercial entity’s hands, but that a commercial entity was allowed to propagate them (and all captive-cultured Orchids are exempt from CITES I, as are all hybrids). Here’s a link to the story – http://www.ladyslipper.com/viet1.htm

Regarding a bounty, indeed, nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

@Craig – Exactly part of the base problem with them, although I can think of other items that might require a diver to go get them (sponges instantly comes to mind). At any rate, commerical marine ornamental collectors are in the water all the time…I’d think ANYTHING to incentivise them to catch / capture / kill Lionfish would be a good thing.

^Absolutely.

Great article, btw.

@Matt- well, that changes things a bit, doesnt it?! If they are classified as hybrids, then wild collection of them and black market smuggling (and classification on any CITES appendix) is all a moot point, in which case they could surely end of being commercially advanced. However, for a classified species, I wouldnt suspect that such a thing would ever be permitted. Especially for a CITES listed species, and especially especially for a CITES I species. For animals, the permitting process for importation of CITES I species pretty heavily limits importation, and if “commerce” is even remotely close to such a venture, the permit would almost immediately be denied. USFWS will never allow an endangered species to be imported for financial benefit. And, in general, if illegal imports are confiscated, permitting any party to financially benefit from them in resale seems quite verboten, also.

@Jeremy – As I mentioned, my example is for a species…Paph. vietnamense is not a hybrid. I shouldn’t have mentioned hybrids as they really were ancillary to the point / example. The thing about Orchids, even Appendix I species, is that orchids can only be sexually propagated in any scale in a laboratory…the baby orchids actually grow in a sealed flask. So long as these plants are shipped in flask, agar at the roots etc…there’s no disputing that they were captive propagated. The only remaining item is that the species has to be listed correctly on a CITES export permit from the country of origin to ever enter the trade legally. Thus, even if Paph. vietnamense had been propagated in Vietnam, they would have to be labled as Paph. vietnamense in order to be legal. If no such permit had ever been granted, there could be no “legal” captive population of the species outside of the country of origin. I ran into problems with this trying to import Paph. jackii from Japan….the US would only issue an import permit for the species if Japan would issue the proper export permit, and Japan would only issue that export permit if the US would issue the import permit. $200 in permit fees just vanished

The question came up as to how many lionfish those red dots represent. They are the result of sightings chronicled by divers reporting their findings to REEF, Reef Environmental Education Foundation. As an advisory member to REEF, we have discussed a variety of methods to control the population. Collecting trips document the stomach contents, revealing small native fishes that are easy victims for this voracious predator. There doesn’t appear to be a natural predator that has developed a taste for the lionfish and their distribution has grown steadily. There are so many of these fish in the Caribbean that it is unlikely that any form of control will be able to keep up with the population growth.

As mentioned earlier, there are many popular dive sites in Florida where one can find exotics such as Asfur, Maculosus, Emperor and Blue Face angels. Red sea butterflies, yellow tangs and sohal tangs have also been reported. There is a large school of pacific batfish that are regularly sited by divers. While unfortunate, most of these fish have a small effect (possibly measurable) on the environment. Lion fish on the other hand are decimating the local reefs of many juvenile fish.

You can find more information about lion fish sightings by going to the REEF web page at http://www.reef.org/programs/exotic/lionfish

Awesome contribution to the discussion RobM!

@ Matt, first off, sorry for derailing this post with our “off topic” ranting!! Let me fisrty state this- I have no experience, nor practical ability to discuss importation of plants. But I do ahve much experience and ability to discuss impoirtation of animals, specifically CITES listed animals.

First and foremost, with CITES appendix I listed animal species, whetrher it is captive bred or not in realistically inconsequential to the US importer. If the SPECIES is listed a appendix I, it is protected. Furthermore, individuals imported legally that are CITES I are not permitted to be transferred from control of the importer for commercial reasons. Their offspring may, but the original individual may not. It appears this is a similar case with your orchids, as the link you gave me indicated the author had worked with a “official rescue center”, and that the cultivars or new growth is only available, and no existing plant from import is to be transferred.

The process to import CITES listed animal species is purposefully, and rightfully, complex and specific. For CITES I animals, you practically need to cure cancer first! However, needless to say, USFWS will not issue import permits for CITES I species if you intend to engage in commerce with them. They are even very gunshy about it if you engage in commerce within the species. And, as I mentioned, even for animals which are NOT CITES listed, USFWS will not encourage the prolifieration of the problem by releasing the animals to public commerce. That only heightens the demand and increases the problem.

@Jeremy – Indeed, the exemption of captive-bred / cloned Ap. I orchids that permits trade is something specifically in place for Orchids. While it may not apply to animals (i.e. fish) where it might be very applicable to reconsider such an exemption would be in the trade of live corals, should they ever become listed under more restrictive CITES listings.

To circle back around to how CITES and “regulations” came into play, lets take your Clipperton Angelfish example. What if those seized Clippertons could one day become the foundation broodstock for captive produced and “legitimized” Clips to enter the trade? I’d argue that seizure vs. propagation makes no difference, and that to some extent, the demand for a fish like the Clip to be collected and imported diminishes if EASIER and LEGITIMATE means of ownership are presented. Not many people want a Clip, and to some extent, I’d think those that do and would pay an arm and leg would do so largely due to the rarity of the animal vs. the aesthetics itself.

As that pertains to Lionfish, I don’t think “regulations” will matter much, and I think creating a demand to utilize this problematic resource really can do no harm. The “damage”, that is these fish becoming established and consuming native fishes, has already happened. I don’t see how a free for all to consume this invasive could be a problem (other than the aforementioned concerns about people coming to DEPEND on the resource and then WANTING to regulate / preserver it). The simply truth is that so long as the government regulation IS a “free for all, take every last one” policy, then the players enter into the utilization of these Lionfish with the understanding that no one will preserve the resource. In fact, doubly applying pressure with a bounty may not hurt either, and reinforces the message that the only “good” lionfish is one that isn’t residing on the reefs of the Atlantic Ocean!

Matt, thats an appreciable scenario, regarding corals, but I assume some very strict and specific limitations would be placed on “authorized” culturers. And, as applied to our lionfish example, that would be fine, provided its not like it is now, where DiverTom, DiverDick, and DiverHarry, can all go out, make a profit, and want to continue making the profit, unimpeded. It really all principle to me.

As per my Clipperton example, IF the fish did become broodstock for captive breeding programs, *in the end source institutions they ended up at*, in what way does this translate to “entering the trade”? At what public aquarium of marine research facility can you go shopping at for livestock? If they did end up in the hands of a retail outfit down the road, I would have to assume it would be WAY down the road, and very removed from the inital collection/confiscation. However, it is established that these fish would NOT be instituted into the “trade”, under current policy. Because, if they were, ther desire and efforts to bring in more illegally wouldve been established.

As for the lionfish, again, I dont disagree with your final statemnt. However, I do disagree with the fact taht opening a retail market for them is a key in the puzzle to having them gone. It is, unfortunately quite shortsighted, IMHO. I do think they need to be gone, but gone and not providing a reason for some to keep them there.

@Jeremy – if we’re not going to commercialize or recreationalize them, what alternatives do we have to control / reduce the population?

Matt, they need to be removed from the reef and destroyed or regulated in their dispersal. JMHO.

Thinking this through, I’m still missing something Jeremy because I’d argue we’re talking about the same thing? By commercializing them or recreationalizing them, we ARE promoting their removal from the reef (i.e. aquarium trade, which IS already regulated to some extent) and possible destruction (i.e. being spear fished for and promoted as a food fish, which again is regulated via licensing of fisherman and fishing regulations). Using as many as possible IS the end game here at this point? We’re not going to get them “gone” simply by wishing them away. Even if we promote a bounty on the head of every last lionfish, no one is going diving at 300 or 400 feet to collect on that bounty. It’s not like we can ever fully remove them by these means…there will always be more recruits it would seem. It is not likely we will be able to develop and deploy toxins (as we do to control, but not eliminate, Lampreys in the Great Lakes). Thus, creating a scenario for the true over-exploitation of the species seems the best way to control it. The problem that both you and I see, that over-exploitation will lead to people with vested interests in preservation, is simply addressed by “good government” refusing to enact ANY measures that would “preserve” the species when people come complaining that the lionfish are disappearing.

Another update – I noticed today that Tom has updated both the scientific name as well as added new pictures directly from the holding tanks – definitely P. volitans / miles. Another note, looks like Medium Lionfish are now on sale for only $22.50!

Matt, we are agreed, except, I am not worried about the “good government” measures, I am worried about the grassroots businessman measures. What reason does Diver Tom have to support destruction for ecological, food purposes, or any other reason? None. He only wants them for his profiting reasons. That is where the conflict is. We have given EVERYONE involved a reason to not want removal to be successful. The people who hunt them to sell at their caribbean resteraunts- do you think they approve of them being caught for the aquariums? They hate that as much as Tom does when they are killed for the dinner plate (rather than his wallet). It has created a competitive market for which the end result is not the same for the different players.

For the record, I am only user Diver Tom as the generic “aquarium collector”, and am not making any assumptions towrads that particular business refernced, or him, or his motives in specific, but just the trade operatot in general.

Here is the solution, in my opinion. Lionfish need to be captured and killed. And Once killed, tendered to a regulatory agent (whether it be governmnetal, privately operated, or international association). Where the “hunter” with then recieve a “stipend” of some sort. Perhaps to be able to sell them to a resteraunt, or eat them himslef, or $1 per fish, or whatever. But it all goes through this regulation. Then, there is no discrepancy in the end game. Everyone wants dead fish at the regulator. Taking out live fish, and rewarding their presence by being able to sell them will only ultimately lead to the fish being *wanted* to be in the caribbean.

Matt, we are agreed, except, I am not worried about the “good government” measures, I am worried about the grassroots businessman measures. What reason does Diver Tom have to support destruction for ecological, food purposes, or any other reason? None. He only wants them for his profiting reasons. That is where the conflict is. We have given EVERYONE involved a reason to not want removal to be successful. The people who hunt them to sell at their caribbean resteraunts- do you think they approve of them being caught for the aquariums? They hate that as much as Tom does when they are killed for the dinner plate (rather than his wallet). It has created a competitive market for which the end result is not the same for the different players.

For the record, I am only user Diver Tom as the generic “aquarium collector”, and am not making any assumptions towrads that particular business refernced, or him, or his motives in specific, but just the trade operatot in general.

Here is the solution, in my opinion. Lionfish need to be captured and killed. And Once killed, tendered to a regulatory agent (whether it be governmnetal, privately operated, or international association). Where the “hunter” with then recieve a “stipend” of some sort. Perhaps to be able to sell them to a resteraunt, or eat them himslef, or $1 per fish, or whatever. But it all goes through this regulation. Then, there is no discrepancy in the end game. Everyone wants dead fish at the regulator. Taking out live fish, and rewarding their presence by being able to sell them will only ultimately lead to the fish being *wanted* to be in the caribbean.

I didn’t read the whole thread….too much speculation and well intended but understandibly ignorant concerns and suggestions, no offense intended. Since I didn’t weed through all of it perhaps some of what I’m writing will already have been covered. First, I’ve been a commercial tropical fish collector in Florida for over 30 years and as well a strong advocate of environmental education and preservation (see or web site). Actually a lot of collectors are environmentalists, those of us who chose the profession simply because it allowed us to be in the water all of the time. In my years on the water I’ve seen it all go to hell compared to the health of the reef and the availability of species we enjoyed in the 1970s. Everywhere I dive in the world, for work or for fun, from my perspective the place is trashed. Now enter the lionfish into the Caribbean…..a total heartbreak for me (and other collectors) because we understand only too well what the rapid and overwhelming expansion of this species means for the reefs of the region. Any collector who has watched as this eating machine moves along the bottom continuously scarfing in the unsuspecting small fish it encounters realizes that the biodensity and distribution of native species we all knew is gone forever. There is NO WAY to deplete this species in the Caribbean. You cannot trap them to any degree, you cannot hook them in any quantity and they are in all habitat except open sand. The only way to kill them is to net or spear them. They cover millions of square miles of bottom to depths well below the diver’s range now and multiply like flies. The notion that fish collectors want this damned thing here or that we would ever protect them shows a total lack of understanding. If collectors could readicate this species we would since the money made by selling them is far outweighed by the loss of Florida species we normally sell. This doesn’t even touch our concern for the biological consequences of it’s presence here. When I vacation dive my favorite spots in the Bahamas and find most of the grammas, blackaps and myriad other species either reduced by 90% percent or gone altogether, replaced by the spidery profile of volitan lionfish plastered against the reef structure I want to barf. The ONLY relief I can see could occur on the more popular dive sites IF the slow thinking morons who manage marine fishery rules in the different countries find it in their feeble brains to allow wavers for harvesting, spearing with scuba THIS ONE SPECIES and with no bag limits. If divers and dive charter boats were given a free hand to spear or net this animal then conceivably we could enjoy small popular dive areas where the fish is kept out and as a result perhaps in some ways we could see small sanctuaries where the biodensity and diversity would resemble what it was before the lionfish arrived, much like keeping encroaching weeds out of your lawn by constantly weeding. Anything beyond this, short of coming up with some virus that spreads like wildfire and kills only lionfish, is wishful thinking. It’s over. Anyone who thinks differently is wrong. Volitan lions are here to stay. Period.

Wow Bill you are sooooo Right.Not any Marine Life Collector has the desire to have the Lion fish in our Fishery.They are eating the fish we make our living from.I for one will make every Lion fish I see in the keys a captured Lion fish and sell it to someone out of state.Not for the money for the good of the fishery.

Wow Bill you are sooooo Right.Not any Marine Life Collector has the desire to have the Lion fish in our Fishery.They are eating the fish we make our living from.I for one will make every Lion fish I see in the keys a captured Lion fish and sell it to someone out of state.Not for the money for the good of the fishery.

How about a Lion fish Hunt I will work wit anyone who thinks they would like to make it happen The Lion fish are not just going to leave the Keys on there own.Rec fishing license holder can collect 5 per day and commercial is unlimited even with out a restricted species endorsment.Right You can get a commercial fishing license for 50 Bucks.so that means all of you can go and take as many as you can.Carefully of course.

An interesting update is that today, Saltwaterfish.com is now offering Atlantic Lionfish at the sale price of $20, with a limit of one. https://www.saltwaterfish.com/Atlantic-Volitan-Lionfish–Venomous-Medium-_p_4551.html

An interesting update is that today, Saltwaterfish.com is now offering Atlantic Lionfish at the sale price of $20, with a limit of one. https://www.saltwaterfish.com/Atlantic-Volitan-Lionfish–Venomous-Medium-_p_4551.html