I’m fine with this type of selective breeding. Likely the K9 sitting at our feet is the result of some form of selective breeding in order to get all the characteristics we covet rolled into one breed – whether that be for a certain purpose or simply aesthetics. Doing the same thing to achieve a “designer” clown is fine by me. As long as they aren’t creating some monstrosity of a fish that can barely swim or has difficulty eating, selective breeding should be viewed as an acceptable practice.

Dogs werent inbred with dogs from the same parents. They bred different breeds to together to create a super dog, that would serve a purpose. better hunting skills, the ability to swim better. ORA is not created a super fish, they are have exploited a genetic defect to create a man mad rarity, which degrades the gene pool. Most of these fish no doubt are from the same parents.

$750 each?!?! A LFS here is SoCal wants $650 for a pair…

B – Crossbreeding is different than purebred breeding in dogs. Crossbreeding is the combination of two separate breeds. Purebred breeding is all about achieving a certain set of characteristic traits that a passed on from generation to generation. Once, for instance, the Golden Retriever was crossbred, it was inbred to certain degree to achieve a bloodline that would pass the same attributes down generation by generation. All purebreeding is achieved with some degree inbreeding whether you like it or not. This is exactly why purebred dogs often have skin, heart, and bone disorders and diseases not often seen in “muts.” This is no different. To create a new breed of fish, the same way we have done with countless other domesticated animals, these first steps have to be taken.

Jon,
So what your saying is that my German Short Haired Pointer was inbred not the product of breeding of two seperate breeds of dogs with seperate traits to create a dog superior for hunting? WRONG Purebred dogs are not derived from two dogs of the same litter with the same parents. Dogs dont produce over 300 young at one time. In the Wild 10 out of those 300 clownfish live and guess what most of the time they possess the the best genes.

“The German Shorthaired Pointer is descended from the old Spanish Pointer, which was taken to Germany in the 1600s. From that time until the first studbook was created in 1870, however, it is impossible to identify all of the dogs that went into creating this breed.”

(on a side note: purebred dogs often have those problems because they are a mix of two or three or four different breeds, bred together to get the best of the breeds. With intermixing those breeds some of the traits may clash and be the cause of those problems)

Most of ORA’s fish are Inbred and this fish is product of intentional inbreeding to acheive a genetic defect. These fish are not a new breed of fish. They didnt mix maroons and ocellaris, it is the same fish from the same parents from the same genetic lines.

A crossbreed or crossbred usually refers to an animal with purebred parents of two different breeds, varieties, or populations. Crossbreeding refers to the process of breeding such an animal, often with the intention of creating offspring that share the traits of both parent lineages, or producing an animal with hybrid vigor. While crossbreeding is used in livestock breeding to maintain health and viability of the animals, irresponsible crossbreeding can also produce animals of inferior quality or dilute a purebred gene pool to the point of extinction of a given breed of animal.

B – I see you’re getting upset, but you are somewhat confused.

Your actual dog was the result of purebreeding. The breed itself is a product of crossbreeding. It’s that simple.

When the first ever German Short Haired Pointer was born, it was created by crossbreeding – the result of selectively breeding several different breeds to create one. In order to perpetuate the German Short Haired Pointer, with the same markings and other characteristics, inbreeding had to be done. Breeding by pedigree, which is the most common today, also involves inbreeding.

The whole rationale is that breeding two members of the same bloodline will result in genetic characteristics identical to the parents. What results is exactly that, and, because of this inbreeding, results in genetic deformities and abnormalities that appear as syndromes and disorders. This is why purebred dogs have those problems, not because of crossbreeding (unless those breeds included had genetic predispositions to those disorders – obviously breeding several animals effected by inbreeding would create another breed with those disorders).

I guess I just don’t understand what you’re trying to get at. Almost all dogs were descendants from one common breed thousands of years ago. When man first domesticated them, they exploited genetic “defects” as well. Selective breeding the same way to bring out certain characteristics. If you have a real problem with this, as it sounds like you do, I’d stop being a hypocrite – saying it’s a travesty for fish, but ok enough where you own a dog that is a product of the exact same process.

Its not that im upset but i dont think your being 100 percent factual when it comes to creation of dog breeds. I understand that some inbreeding may have happened to perpetuate the breed but no two pointers have the same markings or colors or the same size. The father of my dog is not from the same blood lines as the mother. Once they figured out what dog make a good pointer they were able to create new blood lines. This is my point ORA is using fish from the same exact bloodlines.

You dont see people taking a dog with a hip problem being bred with another dog with a hip problem. They would breed the hip problem dog with a dog whose bloodlines show no hip problems.
ORA takes two fish with the same defect and breeds them together to create more fish with the same defect.

B – I’m being completely factual. I think you may have misinterpreted a key difference in my analogy between fish breeding and dog breeding – and that they are very similar, but clown breeding is more synonymous with the early stages of dog breeding (although pedigree breeding still uses a degree of inbreeding).

Since most dog breeds have been bred for decades and even centuries (in many cases), there have been countless generations of each specific breed. The relation between any two Dalmations are so far removed, that what we would generally call inbreeding is not a concern with the average dog. However that was not always the case. Like I said, when the first “Dalmations” were born, they were likely selectively bred with one another to create offspring identical to its parents. After a few generations, inbreeding problems became apparent but not all offspring displayed such complications – so those were bred with those behind them – and so on and so on. Eventually, it became how it is today. What you are calling “defects” are simply genetic differences. Each dog is a descendant of the wolf. When man began to domesticate them, if they wanted a smaller dog, they’d breed two small wolves. If they wanted one with floppy ears, they’d breed those with floppy ears. The same with long coats, narrow muzzles, etc. Everything you term as exploiting a defect is the same as exploiting the defect of two wolves passive personalities, low profiles, herding tendencies, etc.

This is exactly the same with fish. Although a lot of inbreeding is done now, as the bloodlines are diluted with more breeding, eventually you’ll simply get different breeds of clownfish like we have dogs – ones with different markings now, maybe in the future with longer fins, bigger eyes, more torpedo like shape. This is just a necessary step in achieving those goals.

“What you are calling “defects” are simply genetic differences.” I see where you are coming from on your posts… great discussion BTW… but there is such a thing as a ‘genetic defect’. I dont think its what you were getting at, but inbreeding of fish which results in organ defects or actual DNA coding problems could be considered more of a defect than a ‘genetic difference’. I suppose an argument could be made that genetic diseases and sterility are just ‘differences’, lol… but in many cases, these defects result in the mortality of the fish, or the inability to reproduce. These are more than just ‘traits’ as a result of DNA being applied, they are examples of the DNA getting so screwed up that it loses some of its own function, like a disease being coded right into the DNA.

You are right on about the dogs though. Several pedigree breeds are under genetic testing now because the AKC and ‘dog lovers’ are considering the damage they have done to the breeds they have created. The desire for some cartoonish traits has resulted in serious problems with how many breeds live, so rather than having bulls mating with their daughters and such to make a larger head or taller ears, there is a new found interest in what might be considered cross-breeding to reverse some of the genetic damage that has been done to certain breeds over the years.

With fish, the results of inbreeding are dramatic and happen after only a few generations (F2 can still be OK, but F3′s are where things get bad, F0′s being wild or unrelated parents). This is at least from my experience breeding several species of tanganyikan cichlids.

That being said, I actually find these sort of fish to be less desirable than normal. Since when does rarity dictate desire? If the thing was poop brown and missing fins like a flowerhorn, would you still pay $1000 for it since its rare? The naked and ‘platinum’ clowns are ugly IMO, their rarity being their only desirable trait… but like in the case of the black tang… why would I pay so much more for something like that when I can pick up almost the same fish with purple or yellow for 1/10 the cost or less? If its rare and pretty, like a lineatus wrasse, Im all in, but rare and not as pretty… what’s the point?

As you can see already people are posting these for cheaper prices already. My point is that the fish doesnt look good, it looks sick.

This comes a facility that is trying to supposedly do aquaculture but is selling a fish that would be an odd fish but because of the internet they can create a buzz.

B- Go to a puppy mill. There’s LOTS of inbreeding of “purebred” dogs there.

Personally, I don’t like the look of these clowns. The pattern does nothing for me. I wouldn’t spend the $$$$ unless I really loved them.

i dont know about dogs but these fish are really UGLY . . .

Absolutely the ugliest Clown fish I have seen…

Not worth 39.00 to me.

I think the only way they have value would be if they were an actual breed from the wild and were rare.

Those who know me know that I understand the financial need for ornamental fish breeders to pursue the creation of new captive strains, and the revenue they generate. At that level, if a fish like this means ORA stays in business, it’s perhaps a good thing.

Where that argument falls apart is in the simple truth that we aren’t making progress in conserving natural biodiversity when breeding talent and resources pursue the creating of new captive varieties instead of the cultivation of rare species…ORA would much better serve the hobby and conservation by producing species like A. latezonatus. Every bit as rare, beautiful and expensive.

Sadly though folks, it’s hobbyists and what they buy that’s pushing breeders like ORA to continue down these paths….this is what people are willing to pay for, so that’s what ORA is gonna produce.

$750????

I wouldn’t even pay $10 for one of those ugly things.

I’ll stick with my false perc for now at 1/50th the price of the nasty albino one.

Saltwaterfish.com has them for $299.99 each

saltwaterfish.com has them $299.99 each

ora and there breeding of defects makes me sick. to me the fish look like they are hurting. For seven hundred dollars i could start a whole new reef. I know they are the new fish to have, but if you were to show the fish in a rewarding show you would probably have a law suit on your hands. thats just how i feel i dont want any one to be offended but nature made those fish the way they were supposed to be and for some one to breed on purpose defects in color or shape to make a few wads is cruel. thats like buying a designer purse you want it authentic or to look as close as you can get it, you wouldnt buy one with a broken zipper or frayed threads, why would you buy unauthentic fish.

I am enjoying my platinum fish very much.

Whatever floats your boat?
People are entitled to have their preferences.
The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I support a free-market economy and am glad these have become available.
Something is “worth” only what someone is willing to pay.
If you’re not willing to pay it, then maybe someone else will.
The demand determines the price.
If no one is willing to pay, then the price will drop.

Thanks for posting this.

I agree this is wrong and should not be supported by us in the hobby. If these clowns were bred into the ocean like this they would not live. They have the orange and white coloring for some reason. If it happens then it happens, but we should not exploid it and make it happen. In a year these will either be gone or down to $50.00 and ORA will be on to there next science project. I am just curious to see how long these guys even live.

People always complain about taking creatures out of the ocean. Now fish are being bre
bred so we can save wild caught fish. So what if some cross breeding is done!? Do you want to save the reef or not?

Hi, can you please tell me where can i find a good online magazine about dog breeds? I made a research , but can’t find any details about what’s the recommended and healthy food for a Samoyed . Thanks a lot !

site bookmarked, thankyou

My bull dog wouldnt be able to survice in the wild either. Doesnt mean it is wrong to have it. I feel like this type of breeding very well could create some gentic mutations that are not favorable, but just because the clown has white skin deosnt mean it wont be able to eat and swim happily in a tank just as the others do. Inbreeding is done in many different animals. I owned pigeons for 4 years and created an all white roller from two black and white birds (many people said there were no such thing as all white rolling pigeons) but even the fact that my pigeons rolled in the sky ment some sort of gentic mutation that may have been brought on 100 years ago from inbreeding. I dont have a sister, but say that i did, i could “breed” with here and chances are we could have fine children. Rolyaly in britian did it. egyptions did it also to “keep the bloodline pure” its not deadly, it just creates a better chance of genitic defect. many gentic defects that are harmful to the creature will die in the egg or womb. guess what, this happens all the time. in nature if somethin isnt “genitcally correct” enough to live, it will die soon after conception. its the normal course of nature. (that is my two cents)